Seeing the Transfigured Word (Talk Delivered at L'Abri UK)

[0:00] I'll just be setting this on there. You don't need to do anything.

[0:19] I'll shut it off. Thank you. Thank you.

[1:00] I was a worker in Switzerland. I was a worker in Switzerland. I think one of the things I was doing was running. Are you ready to take? One thing I do lack.

[1:12] Oh, that's water. Right. How long? Normally, you speak for roughly an hour, I found Duller and have us half an hour for discussion.

[1:30] I have about... This is the song for the... I don't remember that. At the end of the... Yeah, that was about... I'm just a step-in.

[1:42] Don't cut off juicy points. Yeah, because it's nine. There's plenty to say. But, you know, at nine-ish, I'm just a hand and she'll say thank you.

[1:54] Now, we'll have five questions in the discussion. And then, we'll do that till after 9.30. Excellent. And what I'll do is make it...

[2:06] Right? Introduce you to get it going... Yeah. That looks hard. Stop. Stop.

[2:18] Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.

[2:30] Stop. They've retired.

[2:41] They've retired. They're actually very good. They're retired. And it was done. It was done. It was done. So you'll find it. They've been back here. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not.

[2:52] I'm not even sure. I'm not. I'm afraid. I'm afraid. I'm afraid. I'm afraid. Oh, yeah. OK. Yes.

[3:03] I think we should. I think we should. May we have your attention, please. Thank you.

[3:14] I think we should begin. And just before I introduce our speaker for tonight, I'll just mention next week's lecture on the 13th of July, which is called Deconversion.

[3:25] Why do people lose their faith? By Andy Patton, my colleague here at Labrie. And he's going to be speaking about the loss of faith and discussing the as he says, people are inhabiting a more liminal space between belief and doubt than maybe was once the norm in the past.

[3:46] How do people lose their faith? Can you actually lose your faith? So come back next week for that Deconversion. But this week, we have Alistair Roberts with us.

[3:59] Alistair, I'm just going to ask you a few questions. You've spoken here once before, haven't you, on baptism in the body? Yes. And you're here today speaking on seeing the transfigured word.

[4:11] Yeah. I hope so. You have a background in theology, is that right? Yes. I studied theology at the University of Durham for my PhD.

[4:21] My PhD topic was the Red Sea Crossing and Christian Baptism, a study in liturgy and typology. You can ask me about it afterwards. Sounds wonderful.

[4:33] And you were telling me a moment ago that you actually are working for three different organizations in the USA? Yes. That's quite recent. I work for the Dabnot Institute, so I do summer programs for them, intensive courses, not too dissimilar to what happens here at Libri, and I write for them, writing books.

[4:54] Theopolis Institute, I'm in their various spring and summer intensives. I lecture for them. I'm on the podcast, and I write for them as well.

[5:04] I'm writing some book books. And the Greystone Institute, which is a sort of teaching group, but it's like, think of it as a sidecar that can be attached to any sort of institution, and you can either do the whole of your journey within the sidecar or just part of it, but that's probably the best way to describe it.

[5:23] Fascinating. And are they all based in different places in the US? Completely different places in the US, yes. And you're here? Yes. Working for all three. Yes. Amazing. It's amazing. And are you...

[5:34] Thanks to the internet. You are hoping to, or you're planning to move over to the States? Yes, to Philadelphia. Okay. Wow. And, Alistair, what's your original connection with Libri?

[5:46] How did you come to know the Libri? Hello, from Bites me last year. Okay. I'm reading my blog. Yes. Yes. Alistair has a blog called Alistair Adversaria, which I highly recommend.

[5:58] I found very fascinating and helpful articles, blog posts that Alistair's put up about politics and culture and theology, all kinds of topics. Very interesting. I highly recommend it to you.

[6:09] But I will go. Actually, I'll bring you a glass of water, Alistair, but I'll let you begin. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, if you have a Bible here, I think we'll begin by looking at Luke and chapter 9.

[6:30] Luke chapter 9, beginning at verse 1. And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases. And he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal.

[6:45] And he said to them, Take nothing for your journey. No staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money, and do not have two tunics. And whatever house you enter, stay there and from there depart.

[6:56] And wherever they do not receive you, when you leave that town, shake off the dust from your feet as a testimony against them. And they departed and went through the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

[7:08] Now, Herod the Tetrarch heard about all that was happening. And he was perplexed, because it was said by some that John had been raised from the dead, by some that Elijah had been, and by others that one of the prophets of old had risen.

[7:22] Herod said, John are beheaded, but who is this about whom I have heard such things? And he sought to see him. On their return, the apostles told him all that they had done.

[7:34] And he took them and withdrew apart to a town called Bethsaida. When the crowds learned it, they followed him. And he welcomed them and spoke to them of the kingdom of God and cured those who had need of healing.

[7:46] Now the day began to wear away, and the twelve came to him and said, Send the crowd away to go into the surrounding villages and countryside to find lodging and get provisions. For we are here in a desolate place.

[7:58] But he said to them, You give them something to eat. They said, We have no more than five loaves and two fish, unless we are to go and buy food for all these people. For there were about five thousand men.

[8:11] And he said to his disciples, Have them sit down in groups of about fifty each. And they did so, and had them all sit down. And taking the five loaves and two fish, he looked up to heaven and said a blessing over them.

[8:25] Then he broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples to set before the crowd. And they all ate and were satisfied. And what was left over was picked up twelve baskets of broken pieces.

[8:37] Now it happened that as he was praying alone, the disciples were with him. And he asked them, Who do the crowds say that I am? And they answered, John the Baptist. But others say, Elijah.

[8:49] And others, that one of the prophets of old has risen. Then he said to them, But who do you say that I am? And Peter answered, The Christ of God.

[9:01] And he strictly charged and commanded them to tell this to no one, saying, The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.

[9:13] And he said to all, If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it. But whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.

[9:26] For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

[9:43] But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God. Now about eight days after these sayings, he took with him Peter and John and James and went up onto the mountain to pray.

[9:59] And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

[10:16] Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, Master, it is good that we are here.

[10:31] Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah, not knowing what he said. As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.

[10:44] And a voice came out of the cloud saying, This is my Son, my chosen one. Listen to him. And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.

[11:00] On the next day, when they had come down from the mountain, a great crowd met him. And behold, a man from the crowd cried out, Teacher, I beg to you to look at my Son, for he is my only child.

[11:12] And behold, the Spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out. It convulses him, so that he foams at the mouth, and shatters him, and will hardly leave him. And I begged your disciples to cast it out, but they could not.

[11:25] Jesus answered, O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you, and bear with you, bring your Son here. While he was coming, the demon threw him to the ground, and convulsed him.

[11:37] But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the boy, and gave him back to his father. And all were astonished, at the majesty of God. But while they were all marvelling, at everything he was doing, Jesus said to his disciples, Let these words sink into your ears.

[11:53] The Son of Man is about to be delivered, into the hands of men. But they did not understand this saying, and it was concealed from them, so that they might not perceive it. And they were afraid to ask him, about this saying.

[12:05] This is a very significant passage, within the book of Luke, and within the gospels more generally.

[12:16] I want to look at the theme, of transfiguration this evening, to see some of the ways in which, from this vantage point, from this high mountain with Jesus, we can see the whole, of the New and the Old Testament, in a different way.

[12:31] So if you have your Bibles with you, you will be looking at your Bibles, on a number of occasions this evening. There is a lot to be explored, from this vantage point. One of the first things to notice, is some of the literary patterns, within the book of Luke.

[12:46] So Luke can be divided, into two different chunks, each opening with a particular event. So the first chunk, begins with the baptism of Jesus. That is the first stage of his ministry.

[12:59] And the next, begins with the transfiguration. And you may notice, if you look at this carefully, a number of parallels, between those events. In both of those cases, God bears testimony, to his son, before an audience of people.

[13:14] In both of those cases, it's preceded with questions, about who this person is. Or who someone like, John the Baptist is. Who do people say that I am?

[13:25] All these questions, being asked about Jesus' identity. which are then answered, by Peter, in his witness to Jesus. Now Peter's witness, precedes the transfiguration.

[13:36] The witness of John the Baptist, precedes the baptism. And the death of John the Baptist, ends that section, at the opening section, of chapter 9.

[13:48] So in verse 7, to 8, to 9, we hear about, Herod's beheading of John. Now the question is, has John risen from the dead? Is Jesus, John the Baptist, come back from the dead? Now at the end of this section, we'll see, it ends with Christ's death.

[14:02] And with the question of, has Jesus come back from the dead? Yes, he has. But, these two sections, help us to see, two different parts, of the gospel.

[14:14] The first introduces, his ministry, primarily in Galilee. And the next, introduces, his movement, towards Jerusalem. The movement, towards, his crucifixion. In both of these cases, they're framed, by a statement, of Jesus' identity.

[14:29] A statement, that he is, born witness to, by his father. This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased. Or here, this is my son, my chosen one.

[14:41] Listen to him. So these frame, Christ's identity. So we know that, anything that happens next, occurs in the shadow, of what, God's witness, he is born, concerning his son.

[14:53] Now in both cases, there's a small, privileged audience, that witnesses this. And almost everyone else, is unaware. But, the gospel reader, is in on the secret.

[15:05] The gospel reader, knows who this person is. They have been privy, to the account, that God has given, concerning his son. So everything, that happens next, all the healings, all the parables, all the miracles, are seen in the light, of what we know, as the reader.

[15:20] We know, that this one, is the chosen one. That this one, has been, born witness to, by the father. And so there's a parallel, between the baptism, and the transfiguration.

[15:32] Both of them, involve a theophany, an appearance, an opening of the heavens. Some, miraculous, demonstration, of God's glory. And both of them, introduce a new stage, of the story.

[15:45] There are other things, that we can notice, about this story. If you've been paying attention, you've probably, picked up, on a few familiar details. So, earlier, in the, chapter, you hear this, account, of in a wilderness place, having, bread, miraculously provided.

[16:03] Now, does that remind you, of any story, in, the rest of the Bible? The manna. The manna. Now, if you read the book, of John, John's account of this, makes this even clearer.

[16:17] So, he talks about, Jesus, crosses over the sea of Tiberias, is followed by, a great multitude, goes to the, goes into the wilderness, goes onto a mountain, and then gives them food, and then immediately, starts talking about the manna.

[16:33] So, we're supposed to see, the echoes, echoes of Exodus themes here. Another thing to notice is, the odd details, surrounding the manna. Why, is it about, 5,000 men?

[16:48] And if you're feeding people, why just number the men? That's an odd thing to do. Why seek them, in groups of 50? Again, why that emphasis, on 50s?

[17:00] If you turn to the Old Testament, in Exodus, 13, 18, in the original, Hebrew text, in some translations, not everyone, and also in Joshua, 1, 14, I think it is, in both of those cases, it mentions that, Israel left, Egypt, in 50s, groups of 50s, and entered into, the promised land, in groups of 50s.

[17:25] Again, we're seeing themes, that we should recognize. What else happens? After eight days, they go up on the mountain, or Jesus appoints his disciples, gives them, the ability to, heal diseases, and cast out demons, all these sorts of things, spreading the gospel, of the kingdom, and then after eight days, he takes them up, on a mountain, Peter, James, and John, and he takes them up, to pray.

[17:54] If you go back, to the book of Leviticus, Aaron and his sons, are appointed, as Levites, as the priesthood, and his, Aaron and his two sons, are then taken up, and brought to God's presence, after eight days.

[18:13] Again, significant parallels, that may, they may not be, all the parallels, they may, we may be hearing some things, that are not necessarily there, in some cases, but the number of them, is interesting, we should be paying attention.

[18:28] What happens on the mountain? Jesus talks, quite literally, in the, in the original, Greek, and in a number of your, translations perhaps, of the exodus, his departure, in this translation, but the exodus, that he was about to accomplish, in Jerusalem.

[18:47] Now, if you look in the margin, it will often say, his exodus. He talks with, Moses and Elijah, about the exodus, that he's about to perform. This is, an event, that is paralleled, to what has happened, with Moses.

[19:01] So we've seen, manna themes, we've seen the themes, of the 50s, dividing up the people, and the elders, of the people, dividing them up. So if you read, in the book of Exodus, what happens immediately, before they reach the mountain?

[19:15] The people, are divided into groups, under the elders. Jesus says to his disciples, divide up these people, into groups of 50s. Again, that's interesting.

[19:27] Go up on the mountain, and see a transfigured face. The glory of God, displayed. What did Moses see, on Mount Sinai? God's glory, presented to him, as God, walked before him, and he saw, God's back.

[19:42] What else did he, receive on the mountain? Plans for the tabernacle. What does Peter, talk about? Making three tents. What happens, when they come down, from the mountain?

[19:56] Jesus has left, disciples in charge, and suddenly, he sees, that there's this guy, who's got a son, who's possessed, by a demon, and his disciples, have been faithless.

[20:07] They have not, healed this demon, at this void, from the demon. And what has happened, is that this boy, has been thrown, to the ground, and shattered. That's the language, that's used, by this demon.

[20:21] Again, what does this, remind us of? Moses descends, from the mountain, finds Aaron, and the people, have been faithless, and takes, the tablets, throws them, to the ground, and shatters them.

[20:36] So all of these themes, should recall for us, the story, of the Exodus. What happens, on the mountain, of Sinai, in the Exodus?

[20:50] What does Moses see, when he sees God's glory? If you read the story, of Moses, and the Exodus, he sees, the glory of God, God's presence, before him, and his face shines.

[21:04] He's transformed, by that. As we read, through the whole, of the Old Testament, there are a number, of occasions like this, when people see, God's presence, in some ways. It may be, the visitor, that came to Abraham, where he was, by the Oaks of Mamre.

[21:21] It could be, the pillar of fire, and the pillar of cloud, that led Israel, out of Egypt, as a certain form, of divine presence. It could be, the angel of the covenant, in the burning bush.

[21:33] It could be, the vision of Isaiah, with the train, of God's glory, his glorious robe, filling the temple. It could be, the Shekinah glory, descending upon the temple, and filling it.

[21:45] It could be, the story of Ezekiel, where he has this vision, the heavens are opened, and he sees visions of God, in the 30th year. Now, this should remind us, again, of something.

[21:56] Jesus, in his 30th year, the heavens are opened, and he receives visions of God, in association with his baptism. But, in each of these cases, people receive some vision, of God.

[22:09] It's what's called, a theophany, an event of God's appearance. And when we come to, the story of the transfiguration, we are seeing another theophany. And what's different, about this one?

[22:23] When you read the story, of the Exodus, what do you see? Moses sees, the back of God, as he passes by, and his face shines, in the reflection, of that glory.

[22:36] What is the glory, that the disciples see, in the case of Christ? Is it a reflected glory? No, it's not a reflected glory. It is God's own glory, shining in the face, of Jesus Christ.

[22:50] Not just as a reflection, but as a glory, that belongs, to that face, itself. A glory, that reveals, who Christ really is, and helps us, to understand, what he is doing.

[23:02] That before Christ, goes to the cross, they see him on the mount, as the glorious one. They see him, as the glorious high priest. So the high priest, being set apart, consecrated, in, Leviticus 9, Christ is the high priest, that's taken up.

[23:21] And they see him, in his glorious robes, his heavenly robes, at the great high priest. And then when they, descend the mountain, and he, takes the route, sets his face, towards Jerusalem.

[23:35] They know, this isn't just, any old person. This isn't just, a carpenter, from Nazareth. This is, the heavenly priest, that is taking, this journey. The one with all glory, and power, and honour.

[23:49] And he's the one, making this journey. The theophany, that we see here, is also different, in that the face, is seen. What do we see, in the Old Testament?

[24:02] Isaiah sees the robe, of God, filling the temple. Ezekiel, in this really, elusive language, he describes, talks around it, in ways he can't, actually talk directly about it, he's kind of talking about it, out of the corner of his eye, seeing something like, unto the appearance of, perhaps something similar to, a body in a torso, etc., of a man.

[24:28] But he does not, describe the face. He does not see the face. Moses, what does Moses see? Moses sees the back. And the disciples, when they see Christ, on the mountain, they see his face.

[24:41] They see a transfigured countenance. A face, that gives them an identity. This is the one. Not just the one, who is the glorious one, that they are following, as disciples.

[24:55] But the glorious one, who has appeared, throughout the history of Israel. The glorious one, who appeared to Moses. The glorious one, who appeared to Isaiah. The glorious one, who appeared to Ezekiel.

[25:06] And now, in this fullness of time, he has appeared, to them, with the promise, that he is about, to fulfill, an exodus, in Jerusalem.

[25:19] And so there's all this, charged expectation. This appearance of God, just as he appeared, to Moses, in Sinai, before the exodus. This is a similar, sort of thing.

[25:30] God appearing, announcing, what is about, to take place. If we read the book of John, we see this, on a number of occasions. Particularly in the first chapter, if we read the beginning of John, it talks about, the way that God has appeared, in various ways.

[25:49] And the word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory. Glory as of the only son, from the father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness about him, and cried out, this was he, of whom I said, he who comes after me, ranks before me, because he was before me.

[26:06] And from his fullness, we have all received, grace unto grace, the law, grace upon grace, for the law was given, through Moses. Grace and truth, came through Jesus Christ.

[26:19] No one has ever seen God, the only God, who is at, no one has ever seen God, the only God, who is at the father's side, he has made him known. And when God describes himself, and gives his name, to Moses, he uses that expression, full of goodness, and truth.

[26:40] And when Christ is described, in the book of John, he is full of goodness, and truth. Now that's the contrast, a contrast with Moses here, and also a comparison.

[26:53] That the comparison is, grace upon grace, that there has already been grace, but now there's something greater. And Moses, had, the law was given, through Moses, grace and truth, came through Jesus Christ.

[27:07] Moses saw, this one, on the mountain. Moses saw, the glorious presence, of God on the mountain. Christ is, the glorious presence, of God, that was seen on the mountain.

[27:21] That helps us, to read John the Gospel. It helps us to see, part of how he's contrasting, and also comparing, the story of the Exodus, with the story, of the Gospel.

[27:33] What else do we see? That Christ's, appearance is compared, to the Exodus, appearance to Moses. Christ's appearance, later on, is spoken of, in reference, to John the Baptist.

[27:46] John the Baptist, sees the spirit, descending, and resting, upon this one. Later on, in chapter one, Jesus talks to Nathanael, says, hereafter you'll see, heavens opened, and angels ascending, and descending, upon the Son of Man.

[28:01] Now in each of these, it's almost a progression. Christ is seen, as the glorious presence, of God. Then the spirit, descends, upon Christ. And then, the angels, descend after it.

[28:12] It's like a full-blown, occupation, of the creation. God is coming down, in human flesh. And then, as he comes down, in human flesh, the whole of the heavens, are coming down, with him.

[28:25] It's a remarkable picture. But what we see here, is a description, of Christ, as the fulfillment, of all the appearances, in the Old Testament. The angels, ascending and descending, that's Jacob's ladder.

[28:37] Later on, if we get to, John 12, 30. Jesus talks, or John talks, about the, prophecy, of Isaiah. The prophecy, of Isaiah, that was given, in Isaiah 6.

[28:53] And what does he say, in verse 41? Isaiah said, these things, because he saw, his glory, and spoke of him. Now Isaiah, in that chapter, saw the train, of God's road, for the temple.

[29:10] Whose glory, did he see? Within John's gospel, it's very clear, he's referring to Christ. Christ's glory, is the glory, that we see, in Isaiah 6. Christ's glory, is the glory, that fills, not just, Isaiah's temple, but the whole, of the Old Testament.

[29:27] It's the glory, of Christ. What other things, can we see, in Luke 9? Well, one of the things, that happened, on Mount Sinai, was the setting up, of the new temple.

[29:39] The setting up, of the new, high priesthood. And, this is one of the things, that I've already mentioned, after eight days, that connects, with the setting up, of the high priesthood, and the priestly order, in Leviticus.

[29:53] The setting, a part of the tabernacle. Again, Peter talks about, building three tents. He, he knows, that there's some sort, of tabernacle building, that must, must take place.

[30:08] But he gets it wrong. What is the true building? In Mark's gospel, we see it, that, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell, will not prevail against it.

[30:24] This, is, a, temple, built out of people. Not just, three tents. Christ appears, with Moses, and with Elijah.

[30:36] These are, representatives, of the law, and the prophets, of the revelation, that occurred before. The representative, of the, order of Sinai, and the representative, of the, great prophets, as well.

[30:52] Now, both of them, had connections, with something, that was yet to come. There was this prediction, in Malachi, that there would be, an Elijah to come. There was a prediction, in Deuteronomy, that there would be, a prophet, like unto Moses, that would come.

[31:08] Jesus, later on, speaks about, John the Baptist, as the one, like Elijah. And he is the one, like Moses. The one about, to perform, the great exodus. There is a new, temple being formed.

[31:22] A new temple, being formed, out of people. And Christ, is the great, high priest, at his heart. Christ, is also, the climactic, word of God.

[31:33] When you look, at this passage, what you see here, is one of the things, something we don't really see, elsewhere in the gospels. It's, this one occasion, when God declares, that, the father declares, that Christ, is his word.

[31:50] Now we know, all of that, from what the, gospels testify. But this is, the father himself, in his own words, declaring, this is my son, this is my word, hear him.

[32:03] God, who at various times, has spoken, in various ways, has spoken in times past, to our fathers, to our fathers, through the prophets, has in these last days, spoken to us, in a son.

[32:16] And this, is the son, this is his word, this is the, my chosen one, hear him. It's a very powerful, statement. This is God, putting his imprimatur, his seal, upon his son.

[32:31] This is my word, this is my authentication, upon that word. Hear him. And all of God's words, in the Old Testament, he's spoken in times past, in different ways, through intermediaries.

[32:46] This is his own son. If we read the gospel, parables, God sending, all these prophets, to the wicked vine dressers, and then, he sends his son.

[32:58] And this is the son, that he has sent. This is God's, climactic word. The great word, that he is speaking. The word, that eclipses, and fulfills, and brings to glorious, perfection, all other words, that could ever be spoken.

[33:12] What is the verse, that immediately precedes, the account, of the transfiguration? Another interesting detail, to pay attention to here.

[33:25] In verse 27, every single account, of the transfiguration, in the three synoptic gospels, includes this reference, immediately beforehand. But I tell you truly, there are some standing here, who will not taste death, until they see, the kingdom of God.

[33:39] That's quite a striking statement. It's a surprising statement. It's not something, we'd expect to hear. But yet, what could Jesus be referring to?

[33:51] I think there are a number of things, he could be referring to. He could be referring to, the judgment upon Jerusalem, in the future, or something like that. But, there is first and foremost, a reference to his transfiguration.

[34:04] What does that mean? What does it mean, to see the kingdom of God, in the transfiguration? You have seen the king. You have seen the king, in his glory.

[34:16] The kingdom has not yet, been consummated. The kingdom has not yet, been realized in history. But you have seen that glory. And you can never unsee that glory.

[34:26] You know that that glory is there. It has not yet, fully been revealed. I mean, we talk about, the revelation of Jesus Christ. It's not Jesus Christ, becoming something that he's not, becoming something that he's not already.

[34:41] It's a revelation of who he is. This glorious one in heaven. Turn to the book of 2nd Peter, and I think you'll begin to see, the significance of this.

[34:55] In 2nd Peter, in chapter 1, Peter talks, and he looks back, at this particular event. Verse 16, or actually, I'll start a bit earlier, in verse 12.

[35:09] Therefore, I intend always, to remind you of these qualities. Though you know them, and are established in the truth, that you have, I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up, by way of reminder.

[35:22] Since I know, that the putting off of my body, will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ, made clear to me. And I will make every effort, so that after my departure, you may be able, at that time, at any time, to recall these things.

[35:38] Now, there's, an interesting, reference in those verses, in the original, to tent, put off the tent, this tent.

[35:49] And, the word for departure, is Exodus again. That he's going to, put off this tabernacle, as it were, of this body. And, he's going to have, after his Exodus, for we did not follow, cleverly devised myths, when we made known to you, the power, and coming, of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[36:10] But we were eyewitnesses, of his majesty. For when he received, honour and glory, from God the Father, and the voice was born to him, by the majestic glory. This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased.

[36:24] We ourselves, heard this voice, born from heaven. But we were with him, on the holy mountain. And we have something more sure, the prophetic words, to which you do well, to pay attention, as to a lamp, shining in the dark place, until the day dawns, and the morning star, rises in your heart.

[36:43] Knowing this, first of all, that no prophecy, prophecy of scripture, comes from someone's, own interpretation. But no prophecy, was ever produced, by the will of man. But men spoke, from God, as they were carried along, by the Holy Spirit.

[36:57] So what is Peter's point? Peter's point is, we are not just teaching you, cunningly devised myths. These aren't just ideas, that we've come up with, or manufactured.

[37:10] We actually, saw the kingdom. We saw the king. We saw his glory. And we're not declaring, something that we do not know, as eyewitnesses, when we say that he's going to come, in glory.

[37:23] Because we know, that glory is there. We know that he is the king. And we know, it's just a matter of time. And we can be, sure of that, because we have seen this, with our own eyes.

[37:34] We heard the voice, on the holy mountain. This is not, some second hand report. This is something, that we saw, ourselves. Christ, is the bright morning star.

[37:48] He's the dawn, that is about to rise. Now, this is the kingdom, that is coming. It's coming, seen in advance. It's a reality-filled promise, of what we are yet expecting.

[37:59] It's, as it were, the trailer, that precedes the movie. You know the movie, is coming out. You've seen the trailer. And you know, have some sense, of what to expect. And in the same way, this was the trailer, for the second coming.

[38:13] That, the disciples, have seen this event, beforehand. They have seen a glimpse, of what is about to come. And then they can announce that, to others.

[38:24] Saying that they have, that prophetic word. All these words, that were spoken in the Old Testament. All these words, that God gave, about what was going to happen, in the future. These are made more sure.

[38:35] Because they have seen, not just in the prophetic word, these vague intimations, about what might come, in the future. About the glory of God, that might fill the earth, as the waters cover the sea. But they saw, that glory themselves.

[38:47] And they know, what will wash through, the whole creation, when that glory, comes down to earth. The theme of the transfiguration, extends beyond that mountain.

[39:01] Jesus stands, with his disciples, on that mountain. More glorious, than any, clothes, that could be washed, with the greatest fuller. And he stands, with this shining radiance, and bathes, the whole of their world.

[39:17] The whole of, their understanding with light, for that period of time. And then a cloud, takes, covers him from their view. The cloud of God's glory. The cloud, that covered Mount Sinai.

[39:30] Presumably the same thing. But this isn't just found, in Luke, and in the other gospels. It's also found in Paul. Paul talks about, the significance, of transfiguration.

[39:41] If you turn in your Bibles, to 2 Corinthians, in chapter 3. I want to read, to you a very significant passage, in this context.

[39:59] Are we beginning, to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation, to you? Or from you? You yourselves, are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known, and read by all.

[40:17] And you show, that you, are a letter from Christ, delivered by us, written, not with ink, but with the spirit, of the living God. Not on tablets of stone, but on tablets, of human hearts.

[40:30] Such is the confidence, that we have, through Christ, toward God. Not that we are sufficient, in ourselves, to claim anything, as coming from us. But our sufficiency, is from God, who has made us competent, to be ministers, of a new covenant.

[40:46] Not of the letter, but of the spirit. For the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. Now, if the ministry of death, carved in letters of stone, came with such glory, that the Israelites, could not gaze, at Moses' face, because of his glory, which was, being brought to an end, will not the ministry, of the spirit, have even more glory?

[41:11] For if there was glory, in the ministry, of condemnation, the ministry, of righteousness, must far exceed it, in glory. For if there was, indeed, in this case, what once had glory, has come to have, no glory at all, because of the glory, that exceeds it.

[41:27] It surpasses it. For if what was being brought, to an end, came with glory, much more, will that which is permanent, have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil, over his face, so that the Israelites, might not gaze, at the outcome, of what was being brought, to an end.

[41:48] But their minds, were hardened. For to this day, when they read, the Old Testament, that same veil, remains unlifted, because only through Christ, is it taken away. Yes, to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts.

[42:03] But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed, into the same image, from one degree of glory, to another.

[42:23] For this comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. Therefore, having this ministry, by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced, disgraceful, underhanded ways.

[42:35] We refuse, to practice cunning, or to tamper, with God's word. But by the open statement, of the truth, we would commend ourselves, to everyone's conscience, in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only, to those who are perishing.

[42:50] In their case, the God of this world, has blinded the minds, of the unbelievers, to keep them, from seeing the light, of the glory, of the gospel, of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

[43:03] For what we proclaim, is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ, as Lord, with ourselves, as your servants, for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts, to give the light, of the knowledge, of the glory of God, in the face, of Jesus Christ.

[43:22] Now that is a remarkable passage. There's a lot of things, that Paul is doing there, that are surprising, and brilliant. He takes a story, from the Old Testament. The story of Moses, going up Mount Sinai, and as he saw, the glory of God, and spoke with God, and received the law, and the testimony, of God's truth, his face shone.

[43:43] And then he came down, the mountain, and he had to put on, a veil, so that the Israelites, would not be blinded, by the light, in his face. He had to cover that up, so they could not see.

[43:56] And Paul said, the whole point of this, when you look at the Old Covenant, you can see that glory. That glory wasn't going to be, a permanent glory. That was a glory, that would ultimately, come to an end.

[44:08] But that glory, was remarkable. Now, should not the ministry, of the New Covenant, be even more glorious, even more remarkable? And he gets us, to look, at that example of Moses, and he picks that story apart.

[44:24] So what takes place? Moses, whenever he turns to the Lord, to speak to the Lord, he removes the veil, and he talks directly, to God, face to face. When he goes down, to the people, he has to put on the veil, and cover himself up, so that they cannot see, the glory, a glory that is proper, that belongs, to the Old Covenant.

[44:43] This is a genuine glory, of the Old Covenant, but they're not able, to see it. A veil remains, between them, and that glory. So all they have, is these tablets of stone.

[44:55] Now, those tablets of stone, may even express, part of the veil. If you remember, a port, that Moses had to hide, behind a rock, to, as God's presence, came by.

[45:07] Now, maybe that rock, was the rock, that the tablets of stone, were a passion for. That veil, that lies between, God's glory, and the presence, of frail human flesh. Now, they see, these tablets of stone, but they don't see, the transfigured face, of Moses.

[45:24] They're not prepared, for that sight. But what Paul argues, is that that was, a glory that belonged, to the Old Covenant, that is exceeded, by the glory, of the New Covenant, and, that that glory, of the New Covenant, was always the purpose.

[45:37] That glory, of the transfigured face, the transformed person, was always the point. The Covenant, was never just, about giving rules, the Covenant, was about transforming people, by God's glory.

[45:49] But that glory, had to be covered. And so, in the New Covenant, that glory, is actually, brought into, its full purpose, and effect. It takes place. And so, he takes the example, of Moses, and he uses, the example of Moses, to show, how everyone, fits into the story, in clever way, in a very clever way.

[46:08] So, he says that, the Israelites, they had a veil, put between them, and Moses, so that they could not, see that glory.

[46:19] And even now, when they read Moses, a veil lies, over their hearts. He's taken the word Moses. Moses refers to Moses, the person, in the book of Exodus. Moses also refers, to the books of Moses, the writings of Moses, the law of Moses.

[46:36] And there's a veil, over that too. So there's a glory, in the testimony, of Moses. But that glory, is hidden too. The glory is there, but it can't be seen, because a veil, lies over people's hearts.

[46:50] And what did Moses do, when, when did Moses, take off the veil? He took off the veil, when he turned, to talk to God. When he turned, to the Lord.

[47:02] And Paul takes that, and he says, when we, when one turns, to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now who is turning, to the Lord? Moses, but also us.

[47:15] We are like Moses, in that we turn, to the Lord. And as we see, with unveiled faces, the glory of God, in the face, of Jesus Christ, we are transformed.

[47:27] Now where is that transformation, where is that glory seen? It's seen, in, among other places, the testimony of Moses. The words that Moses, has spoken.

[47:40] And it's seen, in something like, the story, that Paul is using. In that story, from the book of Exodus, we see the glory, of Christ. Now, if we were just reading, that story, as we're accustomed to, a veil would lie, over our hearts.

[47:56] We would not see, the glory of that story, of the veil, and Moses. There is a glory, within that story. That glory is only seen, as a veil is removed. Now, that only occurs, as we turn to the Lord.

[48:09] And it's his glory, that we see, within that place. He goes on, to talk about, the way that, that vision, of Christ's glory, is one that is transforming.

[48:21] And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory, of the Lord, are being transformed, into the same image, from one degree, of glory to another. For this comes, from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

[48:33] Now, if you've ever had, the experience of, listening to, watching, a performance, of a piece of music, that is just remarkable, for instance. And, there are moments, of transcendence, and beauty, that, everything is charred.

[48:48] The air is crackling, with, excitement, and something, marvellous, and beautiful, and unexpected, has occurred. And people are all part of it, and people sense it.

[49:00] If you see, those sorts of occasions, I think we've all, experienced this before. In some way or other, people are changed, people are transfigured, in that moment.

[49:11] The cynicism, the doubt, the hatred, the hardness, washes away, from people's face. And they have this, shining face, on a small level, it has something, of a shining face, that expresses the beauty, of what they've seen.

[49:29] Now, Paul, in a similar way, the Christian's life, should express, something of that. the way, that our lives, are transformed, all those things, wash away, as we see the glory of God, in the face of Jesus Christ.

[49:43] We reflect that. We are those, who like Moses, have faces, that shine. Lives, that shine. Lives, that express, this glory. Now, go back to his argument, at the beginning, of the chapter.

[49:56] The Corinthians, are asking, for all these letters, of recommendation. Are you really, that much, of a prophet, Paul? Can you, of an apostle, Paul, can you send us, these letters, of recommendation, and all these, sorts of things?

[50:09] He says, you are, our letters, of recommendation. Written by Christ, delivered by us, not on tablets, of stone, not on, pieces of paper, but on human hearts.

[50:24] It's the very, transformation, of human life, that is the point, of the new covenant. Not writing, texts, but transformed lives. That's how we see, God's word.

[50:36] It's one of the things, that we see, in the contrast, between what happened, at Sinai, and what happened, at Pentecost. Both occur, about 50 days, after an exodus, after the Passover. What happens, at Sinai?

[50:49] The law is given, and 3,000 people died, because of their rebellion. At Pentecost, the spirit, that writes, the law, in the heart, is given, and 3,000, are cut to the heart, and brought to spiritual life.

[51:06] Christ, is the glory of God. The glory, that we see in his face, is the glory, of the Father. And we are transformed, by that image, from one degree of glory, into another.

[51:18] Our faces, are unveiled. But this is not just, about seeing, seeing Christ, in a more abstract sense. This is about, seeing Christ, everywhere, in the Bible.

[51:31] When we read, the Old Testament, with those, who have unveiled faces, Moses, is unveiled. The books of Moses. We can go back, to the story of Exodus.

[51:43] We can go back, to the story, of the creation. We can read that story, and we can see, Christ there. We can see, Father, Son, and Spirit, working together, in the work of creation.

[51:54] God, who speaks, the great speaker, the transcendent one, who speaks forth, his word, and says, let it be, and things are created, out of nothing.

[52:05] The one, who comes, and deals, with flesh, who forms things, forms human flesh. The one, who makes, and builds, the firmament. The one, who, indwells the world.

[52:19] He says, let the earth, bring forth, and gives life, and power, and breath, and so that all things, might in him, live and move, and have their being. We see the Trinity, within Genesis.

[52:31] That's the transfiguration, of that text. But that glory, was always there. We didn't see the glory. The veil, was over that text. But then in Christ, that veil is removed, and that text, becomes something different.

[52:47] Something different, to our sight, but something that always, already was. Now, if you ever lived, for a period of time, in the 90s, some of you didn't, perhaps, but, you will remember, the, and maybe you've seen them since, magic eye pictures.

[53:04] The experience, of looking at this, sort of jumble, of different colours, and bits of an image, that you might see, and you look at that, for long enough, and if you look at it, in the right way, a 3D thing emerges from it.

[53:20] It's really quite, surprising and remarkable. But, if you remember, when you first saw them, you'll often have, a friend, or a family member, saying, look at this carefully, you'll see it, you'll see it, there's something there, are they having me on?

[53:35] And, is there anything there? And, you look at it, for a while, and you're not seeing anything, and you think, there is nothing there. And then, it jumps out at you.

[53:45] You look at it, in the right way, and suddenly, you see it. And then, you look on the next page, and you can see that one too. Once you've learned, how to see it, it's everywhere. In the same way, as we read scripture, in the light of Christ, you can see him, all over the text.

[54:02] When Christ, talks to his disciples, at the end of Luke, on the road to Emmaus, their hearts burn within them, as he tells them. Now, he opens up, the disciples' eyes, to see himself, in all parts of the scripture.

[54:19] These are my words, that I spoke to you, while I was with you, that everything written about me, in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the Psalms, must be fulfilled. Then he opened their minds, to understand the scriptures, and said to them, thus it is written, that Christ should suffer, and on the third day, rise from the dead, and that repentance, and forgiveness of sins, should be proclaimed, in his name, to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

[54:45] You are witnesses, of these things. So they have the same text, the text hasn't changed, but the glory is revealed, the text is transfigured.

[54:56] Now we talk about, figural reading, of the Bible, where you see patterns, between things. You see connections, and you see certain figures, that represent other figures. So for instance, if you're reading the stories, of the Old Testament, you'll see recurring themes, like in Genesis 3, the woman is deceived, by the serpent.

[55:16] And in the rest of the Bible, what you see is, the serpent is deceived, by the woman. So if you read the story, of Sarah deceiving, Pharaoh, and Abimelech, or Rebecca deceiving, Abimelech, and Rebecca even deceiving, her husband, when he refuses, to give the blessing, to the right son.

[55:33] Rachel deceived Laban, Michael deceives Saul, the Hebrew midwives, deceived Pharaoh, we have other cases, Jael deceives Sisera, Esther deceives Haman, Rahab deceives, the men of Jericho, Tamar deceives Judah, and one by one, these cases, are figures, they show us, that Eve is getting, her own back, on the serpent, that Eve is outwitting, the one who once, outwitted her.

[56:02] Now in the same way, we see figures, of Christ, in the Old Testament, but this isn't just, a figural reading, it's a transfigural reading, a reading, that reveals, a glory, a glory that can change, the people who see it.

[56:18] And as Christians, the Old Testament, is our book, as much as the New Testament, and once you have seen, Christ in the Old Testament, you will see him, all over the place.

[56:28] In the stories, not just in the prophecies, you'll read the story, of David, at the rebellion, of Absalom, David crosses, the book, Brook Kidron, and he's weeping, as he climbs, the Mount of Olives, goes to the top, and he's ministered to, by Ziba, Mephibosheth's servant.

[56:49] His enemies, are led by, one who once, sat at his table, Ahithophel, who then goes off, and hangs himself. Then we see things like, Shimei, who fights, who casts stones, and is also, shouting and cursing him.

[57:08] And, Abishai, I think it's, I think it's Abishai, says, shall, can I, strike this man down? And David says, no. We've heard that story before, it's the story of Christ.

[57:21] Christ, crossed, crossed the book, Kidron, after the, experience, and the Last Supper. He goes up the mountain, and there's weeping. He's ministered to, by angels at the top.

[57:35] He's met, by, these people, who seek to, destroy him, with, swords, and with clubs. His right hand man, tries to strike down, the high priest's servant.

[57:48] We've heard the story before, but we heard it as the story, of the first David, now we hear it of the greater David. We hear Judas, going off and hanging himself, for when he gave counsel, to the enemies.

[58:01] These are stories that, buzz with a new life, when we read them, in the light of Christ. And that's throughout, the Old Testament. Now as Christians, this isn't just about, clever readings of texts.

[58:17] Paul says, we don't just have a ministry, of texts. This isn't what it's about. Spirit gives life, but the letter kills. This isn't just about letters. This isn't just about words.

[58:28] This isn't just about, clever literary parallels. It's about Christ's glory. And it's about, the transformation of life, that that brings. As we see that, as people see that, their lives are changed.

[58:42] They're not the same. They live in a different way. They speak in a different way. They see the world, in a different way. Now when you've had, a remarkable experience, and you've experienced, something beautiful, that as it were, a veil has been removed, and you've seen something, about reality, as it truly is.

[58:59] You can't look at things, in the same way again. There's this wonderful, line from, a couple of lines, from a hymn, that I always, think about, at these times.

[59:10] Heaven above, is softer blue, earth below, is sweeter green, and something lives, in every hue, Christless eyes, have never seen. The world, becomes a different place, when we see it, in the light of Christ.

[59:23] When we see it, transfigured, by his glory. When we see, it through eyes, that have been opened. Eyes that have been opened, not upon the shame, and the guilt, that Adam and Eve's eyes, were opened upon.

[59:37] But upon the risen Christ, that Mary Magdalene's eyes, were opened upon, at the end of John. This is what we are called to see, the glory of God, in the face of Jesus Christ.

[59:50] Amen. Amen. I have time now, for any questions you might have. Thank you, Alice, that's really interesting stuff.

[60:09] And the links are wonderful to see. My question is, how can you help us, when we're reading the Bible ourselves, to know, when we've spotted a link to Jesus, and when we're just, you know, when we're not.

[60:24] So your groups of 50 things, for example, if I'm reading about a group of 50, does that take me to 5,000 or not? And how can we get about, discerning which are, which are meant to be there, and which aren't?

[60:37] That's a very good question. I think, in part, we can never, there are many times, we can't know for certain. And so as a result, we hold some of them very, much more strongly than others.

[60:50] But when we have a lot of them, coming together, they have a cumulative weight. So for instance, in that passage, you have a number of references, to the Exodus. Now, the reference to the 50s, is perhaps, arguably, the weakest of them all.

[61:07] But you've got an explicit reference, to the Exodus, in Jesus' words, the Exodus that he was about to accomplish, in Jerusalem. The Exodus, which is not, by the way, just his death. It's the Exodus, of tearing open, the abyss of death, so that people could, follow through, the deep, of Sheol, on dry land, as it were.

[61:26] But that's the Exodus, that we're brought through. So you've got, that reference, which is an explicit one. Then you've got, the allusions to things, like Aaron, being compared to the disciples.

[61:37] And Jesus uses, pretty much the words of Moses, when he says, faithless and perverse generation. Or crooked generation, depending on the translation. These are, words that very much, they're taken from Moses' mouth.

[61:51] There are times, when there are elements, that are really, striking and odd. I mean, why would the, why would the demon, shatter the boy? I mean, why use that word?

[62:02] Well, it's an odd word, but it's found in reference, in the Septuagint, to the breaking of the tablets. Now, that is suggestive. It doesn't actually, tell you for certain, that there is a connection.

[62:15] But when you've got, them building up, the tents on the mountain, the transfiguration, and the appearance, of the theopony on the mountain, when you see the, the setting apart, the priesthood, all these sorts of themes, accumulating, I think there's something there.

[62:32] It's like listening to a piece of music. How do you know, that there is a particular theme, in a place? Can you have a, a straightforward argument, that says, okay, it's definite, that there is that particular theme, in this piece of music, that this motif is coming out?

[62:49] It's hard to put that in the art, in the form of an argument. But you can hear it. Sometimes you can hear it, very clearly. Other times, slightly less clearly. But as you train your ear, you become better at hearing it.

[63:03] Now I think one of the things, that I find very helpful, in this respect, is, it's more of an art, than a science. And how do you learn art? You learn art, from learning from other people, who are good at it.

[63:15] So read people, throughout church history, who have been reading, these passages. You'll notice in many cases, they've noticed these things. You're not the first person, to see this particular connection. If you are, then, it's likely, that it may not be that clear.

[63:29] If it's there at all. But, if you're paying attention, to what people have said, throughout church history, you'll notice that, very few of our readings, like this, are novel.

[63:40] They've happened before. People have seen, these things before. If they've been paying attention, particularly the skilled readers, the readers that you want, to apprentice yourself to. If you see a particular, skilled reader, reader of scripture, pay attention to how they read it.

[63:55] Ask them, how they are doing, particular things. What are the connections, that help them to, see these things? Now again, it's worth thinking about, if you're reading, something like Luke's gospel, there are certain themes, that are more prominent, within Luke's gospel.

[64:10] So if you're, thinking about, a connection with, 1 Samuel, that's a lot more likely, to be found in Luke's gospel, than Matthew's, because Luke often uses, the background of 1 Samuel.

[64:21] So it's knowing, these things really well, and knowing the original text, really well, because again, the hearers of this text, would have, be very familiar, with the Old Testament.

[64:33] so when they heard words, that were familiar, their ears would prick up. And so there are ways of, where we've learnt, the Old Testament well, our ears will prick up too, but it's like hearing a joke, or getting a joke.

[64:46] If you're a foreigner, in a country, one of the last things, that you will understand, are the jokes. Because the jokes, require a lot, of background knowledge. It's not within the joke itself, that the interpretation is contained.

[64:58] Rather, it's in all the cultural knowledge, that you bring, to the hearing of the joke. When you hear the joke, you get it, because you have, all that background knowledge, and you know the sense of humour, you have the ability, to get on that wavelength.

[65:12] And so often, I think that's the way, that we need to, learn how to read scripture. More as an art, than the science. So there's not a single method, that will solve this for you. I think it's very much, a matter of practicing, reading the Bible, again and again.

[65:25] And reading it not, in the way, that we often read it. Coming at the Bible, with our questions. What does the Bible, teach about this? Or what does the Bible, teach about that? Or have my list, of five questions, that I ask, of every single passage, that I read.

[65:38] Now the best thing to do, is don't come at it, with your questions. Shelve your questions. And just come at it, and listen. And see what questions emerge.

[65:48] And often the questions, that emerge, are far more illuminating, than the questions, that you originally came with. And you'll find, many of those questions, that you originally came with, may dissolve, as you begin to see, far more important, and revealing questions.

[66:03] Now I've found, that what, has been particularly helpful, for me on that front, is reading, or hearing, often better, a biblical passage, seven times, or something like that, before I ever ask, any questions.

[66:17] Just listen, really closely. Step back, and listen to what God is saying. And then, at a certain point, things will, come out to you.

[66:28] Things will emerge, from the text, certain themes. Read, small sections, but also read, larger sections. Often reading the Bible, is like riding a bike, if you go too slowly, you'll fall off.

[66:41] And, hearing something like that, in the context, of a larger passage, you'll see an accumulation, of different, things, that come together. Now, again, as you build up, your knowledge, of certain patterns, as well, you'll be able, to see, those patterns expand, and you can build, upon an existing foundation.

[67:00] So, if you're reading, the story of Herod, being, Herod killing, John the Baptist, in Mark, and Herod, and Herodias, and all these, characters involved, you might think, okay, Herod is like Ahab.

[67:17] Now, that's a, fairly weak, connection of itself. But then, Jesus says, that John the Baptist, is like Elijah, the Elijah that was to come. You read the connections, between, or you think about, the connections, between, Jesus, and John the Baptist, and Elijah, and Elisha.

[67:36] Elijah, and Elisha, switch, one takes over, from the other, where do they take over? On the banks, of the Jordan. One is a desert prophet, one does most, in his ministry, in the land.

[67:49] Again, where do Moses, and Joshua, switch over? On the banks, of the Jordan. One is a wilderness prophet, one does most, of his work, in the land. Where do Jesus, and John, change over?

[68:01] When does John, start to decrease, on the banks, of the Jordan? And John the Baptist, is a desert prophet, he's described, wearing the same clothes, as Elijah. And then you see, that connection, and you think, okay, what do we read, in the story of Elijah?

[68:16] Elijah is opposed, by Ahab, and Jezebel, this couple, that seek to take his life. John the Baptist, is opposed, by a wicked king again, and his wife, who instigates, the reluctant king, actually acting, against the prophet.

[68:35] Jezebel, was the one, that was really pushing it, in the same way, we see, in the story of John the Baptist. Now, just taken by itself, it seems a weak connection. But once you've built, everything else around it, and seen all the other connections, that connection, suddenly makes a lot more sense, and things start to open out, out from that.

[68:52] And you can follow that line, and many other things, will reveal themselves. So I think that's the way, that's a long answer, but I think, that's the way, that I tend to approach it. But, it's hard to explain, without working through, all the different steps.

[69:09] Thank you. Thank you very much, for a very clarifying, exposition.

[69:20] I'm fascinated, by the theme, of the body, and, the baptism, and how, you know, Jesus embodies it, and then, the way, his body is transformed.

[69:34] And then, again, how we are called, the body of Christ. Could you comment on that, the parallel of, those, and how, the body of Moses, is transformed, by the glory of God, but not the body, of those, that see Moses.

[69:49] Yeah. I'm just, yeah, could you comment on that? Well the connection, between Moses, what Moses sees, is the glory of God. What the Israelites see, is the reflection, the glory of God, revealed, in the, theophanie.

[70:03] What the people see, is the glory of God, reflected on Moses face. What the disciples see, and what we see, is the glory of God, directly, in Christ. It's not just, a reflective glory, it's the actual glory of God.

[70:17] So that's, a key distinction. When you talk about the body, one of the things to notice, in the, whole, Gospels, it's a story of Christ's body, primarily. Christ is conceived, by the power of the Holy Spirit, that's a bodily event.

[70:32] Born of the Virgin Mary, he's circumcised, and presented in the temple. Baptised by John, Jordan, it's a bodily event. He is, um, crucified.

[70:43] Or he's transfigured, on the mount. He's crucified. He's buried in the tomb. He's raised, his body is raised, on the third day. He ascends bodily, into heaven, and he will come bodily, at the end.

[70:56] So all of these are stories, about Christ's body. Um, the relationship between, Moses and his people. The body of Moses, is mentioned elsewhere, in scripture.

[71:06] The body of Moses, is, the people are connected, with Moses. If you read the story, of Exodus, it starts off, with Moses, being drawn out, of the water. And Miriam, at the other side, as it were, greeting, connecting him with, or connecting, Pharaoh's daughter, with Jochebed, Moses' mother.

[71:28] Now, Moses gets his name, because it means, drawn out. That's his name. Later on, Israel, is drawn out, of the Red Sea.

[71:40] They're called, in John, in, um, 1 Corinthians 10, Paul says, that they were, baptized, into Moses, in the cloud, and in the sea. What that meant, in part, was that, Moses had undergone, this experience himself, beforehand.

[71:55] And then they are, placed into, Moses' experience. Moses has walked, this path beforehand, and then they are, connected with him. In the same way, when we think about, what it means, to be Christians, it's to be those, who enter into, the destiny, of Christ's body.

[72:11] We are, baptized, into his death, into the event, that happened, to his body. We are buried, with him. Our bodies, are placed, into his. And, we will be raised.

[72:24] So, we're suspended, in that particular, phase of death, in the tomb, as it were, awaiting that later, resurrection, that's going to occur. And so, our body, the destiny, of our body, is one that's, caught up, in the destiny, of his body.

[72:40] And so, I think that helps, in part, to understand, taking place. Now, if you look, in the book, of Revelation, it begins, with the revelation, of the glorious, Christ, dressed in priestly, robe, but also in the garments, of a bridegroom.

[72:53] At the end, of the book, you see the glorious, church of God, descending, from heaven, and, coming down, dressed, as a bride. Now, that's glorious, as well, because we, have come to share, in the glory, of Christ's body.

[73:08] Just as Moses, caught up, the people of Israel, within the destiny, of his body, his deliverance, from the water, has been drawn out. He's going, to Mount Sinai. He went, to Mount Sinai.

[73:19] He wandered, for 40 years, in the wilderness, before Israel ever did. And so, Israel was drawn, into his experience. Likewise, Christ is the one, who is glorified, and ascended, risen, and, that is our destiny, too.

[73:33] Our bodies, are taken up, into his body. And at the end, you see, like the spirit, descended upon Christ, as baptism, the church, descends in the spirit, upon Christ.

[73:44] And so, there's this union, of the two, and we are his body. We are, caught up, into the glorification, and the resurrection, that characterizes, his body.

[73:56] And so, in that sense, we are, as Christians, those who are, snatched up, in the slipstream, of Christ.

[74:07] by the spirit. We are those, who are, as it were, going behind him, as he, goes through, the air, at some speed, that we could not, achieve by ourselves.

[74:19] But we are, caught up in that, in his slipstream. And as Christians, we, participate, in the first fruits, of the resurrection, as Christ's spirit, indwells us.

[74:31] And in the same way, we experience, his glorification, his transfiguration. As we, look upon his glory, like Moses, our faces, and our lives, are transfigured. You made the reference, about Moses, when he came down, from the mountain, he covered his face.

[74:53] And, as a result, the Hebrews, have never been, able, to, experience, what he experienced, because, this coming.

[75:03] Now, can we, transpose that, to, modern day, situations, where people, even being presented, with the word of God, refuse to accept it, and refuse to see, what they see.

[75:17] Is their faith, the same as that, of the Hebrews, who even today, will not accept Jesus, as, as the Messiah. And, they're still waiting, for him, so to speak. And, if that's the case, do we, give up on people, more like that?

[75:35] Or, how do we, go about, sort of, you know, trying to deal, with that aspect? I think, that's actually, a good point, to bring up, because, if you think about, the logic of Paul's argument, that's exactly, the point that Paul makes.

[75:50] He predicts that, your exact question, when he says, and if our gospel, is veiled, it is veiled, only to those, who are perishing, in their case, the God of this world, has blinded the minds, of the unbelievers, to keep them, from seeing the light, of the gospel, of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

[76:09] So, he, he recognises, that if someone, has been following his argument, they will come up, with the question, that you came up with. And then, the answer to that, is, in their case, their mind is veiled, but it's veiled, by the work of the, of Satan, who has blinded them, so that they would not, see the glory of Christ.

[76:27] But, then he goes on, to talk about, the fact that, God who said, let light shine out, of darkness, the God who gave light, in the very first place, at the beginning, has shone in our hearts, to give the light, the knowledge, of the glory of God, in the face of Jesus Christ.

[76:42] So, this, there's no reason, to give up, because we're not serving, a God that's trapped, by the blindness, that Satan, can inflict upon people. We serve the God, who brought light, from darkness, in the first place.

[76:56] A light, that can penetrate, any darkness, that is placed before it. And so, in that sense, as we pray for God, to open people's eyes, this is what we're praying for. We're praying that, God who said, let light come out of darkness, would do that, within their lives, within their eyes, so they would not, just see Christ, and just have, a veil, but, they would see, his glory.

[77:20] And as their, eyes see that glory, they are, changed by it, and they respond to it. Thank you. Thinking of, the way, Moses, who we've talked a lot about, wasn't allowed, in the promised land, I always felt, it was rather sad, that perhaps, the Lord was a bit hard on it, but, in the end, he joined the party.

[77:50] Yes, he did. And he's, wonderful, sort of salvation. I think the other thing, is that, both Moses and Elijah, had Exodus like experiences, they had the experience, of, Moses led the people, out of Israel, he led them to, and gave them the manor, and the wilderness, he set up the elders, over the different group, numbers of people, he led them through the wilderness, for 38 years, the wandering of their sin, and, and then he went up, on Mount Nebo, and he saw, the promised land.

[78:24] Now, he experienced, one exodus, and it talks about, Abraham, looking for a greater city, so he's wandering, thinking about, one promised land, but, he sees that promised land, as a reality, the promise of some, greater promised land, in a way, even beyond that.

[78:43] In the same way, the story of Moses, is the story of a man, who experienced, one exodus, but within that exodus, he saw a greater exodus, prefigured, that there was, something greater to come, and within that story, there was an anticipation, of something.

[79:00] When Paul tells, the story of the exodus, he tells the story, as a reality, filled promise, of the exodus, still to come. So, what was the rock, that followed them, in the wilderness, the rock, from which they were, given water, it was Christ.

[79:14] What was, the crossing, of the Red Sea, it was a baptism, into Moses. They all drank, the same spiritual drink, it's a prefiguration, of the Lord's Supper.

[79:26] All these things, happened to them, as are examples, upon whom, the ages, of the ages have come. So, they have an anticipation, of what is yet to come. Elijah, had a similar thing.

[79:38] Elijah, had an experience, of being a desert prophet, waiting entry, to the, persecuted, by Ahab, struggling, to, in the drought, and things like that, struggling with persecution, in his land, am I, am I alone there?

[79:57] And these experiences, he went to Mount Horeb, and he, Mount Sinai, and he, talked to God, about the problem, and God appeared, in a glorious way.

[80:08] Now, he had had, a sort of exodus experience, and now, he's seen the reality, that was anticipated, in that, that, when he sees Christ, he is talking with him, about the exodus, that he's about to accomplish, in Jerusalem.

[80:24] So, both of these examples, of people who've had, a sort of exodus experience, they're seeing, the one that their experience, always looked towards, and as Jesus says, in John's Gospel, Abraham rejoiced, to see my day, and was glad.

[80:38] The point being, that Abraham, had all these things, happen to him, but, he recognized, that that wasn't, the ultimate point, it was, it was straining, towards something greater, it was like a, stained glass window, through which a light, that was far beyond it, shone through, and so, as he looked, at what God, has shown him, he was not, not just looking at that, as an end in itself, but seeing through that, the more glorious light, of God's promise, and so, faithful people, in the Old Testament, did have the eyes, to see, the transfiguration, that was yet to come, so they saw the light, that was, being awaited, even in the darkness, of where they, currently stood, in the New Covenant, that we see, these things, more realized, they had, this experience, of the prophets, wondering how, these things, are going to come to pass, and as, Peter says, we have the prophetic word, made more sure, we have seen this, with our own eyes, we have seen, what they were grasping towards, and having small, intimations of, and a sense, that this might be, down the line, that this might occur, and they, as it were, they hear the footsteps, in the hall approaching, and now, we see the door, flung open, and the light, coming in, and we see, the face, of the one, who has opened it, and so, that old testament, that was once, this, didn't, once this, gloomy room, with lots of furniture, that we didn't know, exactly what was there, as the door, is flung open, by Christ, and the light, streams in, all of it, lights up, we begin to see, things that we, didn't see before, okay,

[82:21] I was thinking, about the, feeding of the, four thousand, and I've heard, that there are, pointers, to say that, they were, Gentiles, and I just, wondered if there, was any typology, to be seen, in that respect, or, in that story, I'm, I'm sure there is, I'm, I've given thought, to that, there's, significance, in both cases, to how many, baskets, were gathered afterwards, and both, of those cases, are brought into, correspondence, with each other, by Jesus, and his own, just teaching, to his disciples, so, he wanted them, to see some significance, in them, I've not, yet, figured out, what it is, I have, some, questions, and ideas, that I've put forward, in the past, I'm not certain, and, it's one of those areas, where, my thinking, is still very much, trying to, get around that, but, one thing, that's worth noticing, is that in both cases, they, refer back, to events, that happened, in the Old Testament, so, it refers back, to the manna, the feeding of the, the people with the manna, but also, refers back to, if you go to, to, kings, and, trying to find the place,

[83:56] I should find this, but, yes, yes, that's the place, a man came, from Baal, Shalishah, bringing the men, the man of God, bread, of the first fruits, twenty loaves of barley, and fresh ears of grain, into sack, and Elisha said, give to the men, that they may eat, but his servant said, how can I set this, before a hundred men, so he repeated, give them to the men, that they may eat, for thus says the Lord, they shall eat, and have some left, so he set it before them, and they ate, and had some left, according to the word of the Lord, so it's a feeding of the hundred, what we see, in Christ, feeding of the four thousand, feeding of the five thousand, the five thousand, is, a hundred, or, ten times ten, times fifty, so you have the fifty, the people that are led out, and the fact that it's men, being numbered, that's, military numbering, in military numbering, you number the men, when you're numbering people, food, you number the mouths, that you need to feed, but, the military numbering, would be the numbering, of the men, that's what you see, in places like numbers, the four thousand, the fifty is associated, with the exodus, the four, the four thousand, again, these things, recall, the events of, um, things like two kings, and Elisha, performing these miracles,

[85:35] Jesus connects his ministry, with Elijah and Elisha, in his, Nazareth's sermon, in Luke four, the four thousand, might be a case of, forty times a hundred, um, that four, represents four corners, of the earth, or something like that, and it's, an extension, to, a wider body of people, now, that's, there's a lot more, to it than that, there's a lot, other numbers, that are significant, I don't have a clue, what they mean, because there are a lot, of numbers in scripture, that we're supposed to, our ears are supposed, to prick up, so for instance, if you're reading, John's gospel, and you read, that the man, has been waiting, has, had been lame, for thirty eight years, and he's waiting, for the waters, to be troubled, by the angel, so that he can go, into the water, and then go into the, he's at the sheep gate, and he's waiting, to go into the city, and he's been held, outside the city, how long did Israel, wander in the wilderness, after their rebellion, thirty eight years, so there were two years, and then there was, thirty eight years, of wandering, and being exiled, as it were, and so, you're supposed to, notice that,

[86:45] Anna, is, eighty four years, oh, seven times twelve, number of Israel, and the number of completion, there are, forty two generations, divided into, three sets of fourteen, in, um, the beginning of Matthew one, that's the generation, that's the genealogies, now again, why might that number, be significant, what is twelve, plus twenty four, plus six, forty two, what is that, a time, times, and half a time, and then in, in Revelation, you have that given, in months, or days rather, um, I think it's, twelve hundred and sixty, and so these numbers, are often significant, you're often supposed to pay attention, something's going on, um, what about, the woman with the issue of blood, for twelve years, and then immediately after that, healing, raising up of Jairus' daughter, who's twelve years old, why tell us that particular detail, because both of these figures, are being connected with twelve,

[87:55] Israel, these are figures of Israel, likewise, the fact Jesus chooses twelve, disciples, the leaders of a new Israel, and he makes that more explicit, in, um, Luke, where he says, you'll sit on twelve thrones, dredging the twelve tribes of Israel, and so I think, there is almost certainly, a number of things going on, there are almost certainly, a number of things going on, in feeding four thousand, and those can maybe give us, some indication, of what's taking place, and then the time times, and half the time, this work, that's three and a half, um, that's a broken seven, or it's six times seven, in the case of the forty-two, what happens after that, what's the next week, that's brought in, it's the week that leads to Jubilee, the fifty-year.

[88:45] so I think, these are some of the things, that the gospel writers, want the really attentive reader, to notice, but, some of them are more certain, some, I just, do not have a clue, um, why were there, one hundred and fifty-three fish, maybe because it's, the triangular number of, thirteen, um, and maybe because, it's associated with the, Demetria, um, Ezekiel 48, the healing waters, that go out, into the different parts, but, we don't know, but we do know that fish, are significant, we know that all the leaders of Israel, main leaders of Israel, in the Old Testament, were associated with shepherds, and then suddenly, there's fish everywhere, in the New Testament, what's that about?

[89:27] Where do we see fish, in the Old Testament? The story of Jonah, Jonah who's sent, to a Gentile nation, and so, the fish, Jesus, when he says, that his disciples, will be fish as a man, is, an anticipation, of going beyond, the land, the creatures of the land, going to the seas, and going out, to the nations.

[89:49] So, the fact that there's, 153 fish, and that, John sees, it's very important, that we know this number, there's probably something to that, and we need to look into it, but, it's, it's not always clear, and we need to be, a bit careful.

[90:10] In the beginning, of your passage, you read, Jesus sent out, the disciples, to preach, and to teach, and to cure, cure people, from their diseases, when they came back, he asked them, who did they say, he was?

[90:30] And he, they replied, some said, he was, Elijah, resurrected, some said, John the Baptist, other prophets, other prophets.

[90:42] Why then, I know it was a silly question, but why then, did he tell them, to say, to say that, to, their reply, was, when he asked them, who do you think you are, was, you are the Christ, the son of God.

[90:58] God. So, why then, did he say, to say nothing about this, considering they've just been out on the high operation, to converse all the local people?

[91:11] Yes. Well, that's a good question, within, theologians, reading through the gospels, what is the messianic secret? Why does Jesus, keep this under wraps?

[91:24] Why does he, tell parables, so that hearing, they shall hear, and not understand? In part, because, the kingdom, is, the kingdom, is not, what people expect, it is.

[91:39] And if they're told, straight up, that Christ, is the Messiah, they will get the wrong impression, as the disciples, themselves do. Peter, himself, seeks to resist, Christ's movement, towards the cross, because he thinks, the Messiah, should not do that.

[91:54] And when there, in another account, in John's gospel, I think, when it talks about, the feeding of the 5,000, the people, try and grab him, to make him king. And so, the messianic secret, is in part, only after the resurrection, can that be revealed, because only after the resurrection, have you seen, that Christ achieves that, through the way of the cross.

[92:14] Not through, taking over the Romans, or starting a rebellion, not through, military might. But, the messianic secret, is not revealed, until we, see the true secret, which is, the true secret revealed, is this, through the cross.

[92:31] And I think, at that point, then the secret, is shouted, from the rooftops. But that is, yes, that's a question, that many scholars, have been wrestling with.

[92:43] And it's, a very good one. It is 9.30 now, so let's, draw a line there, but, Alistair, do you mind, being here for a little while, for those who'd like to, keep chatting?

[92:59] Yep. But thank you all for coming, Alistair, thank you so much. Thank you.

[93:33] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.